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| | Examining the Fractals Paradigm | |
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+8woo tang clan Frosty Perf Chucks Benkensven AOTT Albus [HRUU] Skittles 12 posters | Author | Message |
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Skittles Bridge Troll
Posts : 260 Join date : 2010-11-14 Age : 35 Location : Texas
| Subject: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:21 pm | |
| *Disclaimer -This guide is based solely on the experiences of those mentioned throughout the guide and is not intended to be the "meta" for fractals. If you disagree with anything stated within the guide please feel free to leave a comment and let us know why you disagree with it and what you think should be changed. Please refrain from flaming the guide or just leaving negative comments. We are wanting this guide to change the way people think about their group setups and how they could better form a team to take on harder content.* Examining the Fractals Paradigm FotM 48 and Beyond IntroductionIt has recently come to my attention that we are lacking an endgame tactics guide based on a team rather than a profession. So with the help of Chucks, Abyss, and Reihn I have decided to write this guide for the Guild Wars 2 end game. Now the first thing you might think when reading the previous sentence is "what endgame?" That is to be expected. After all it has been put into our head that GW2 has no endgame. That is an ill informed notion. Currently, GW2 has an endgame. It simply lacks the rewards you would see in endgames from other games. The endgame in GW2 (currently) is Fractals of the Mists (FotM). While many people find it unchallenging at lower levels. The real challenges come at 40+ FotM--and soon 50+. While the only reward at this level is an increased chance for fractals weapons it is something that may soon change. We know Anet is working on new fractals and with this it could possibly bring more rewards. This, coupled with the new ascended weapons, are driving people into the higher levels. As it stands most people hover around FotM 26, even less in the 30s, and beyond that a much smaller fraction at 40+. This guide is intended to help people who want to push up those levels and act as the foundation to their progression in FotM, as well as improve the capabilities of veterans. While many people have done highend fractals, the problem I find most common--even among veterans--is the GW1 attitude towards the dungeon. In GW1 people became extremely comfortable with builds in highend areas and it became so routine that many didn't really have to think about their job in a given team setup. In GW2 that mentality produces a major problem. When people run the same builds in the same dungeons and continuously complete those dungeons, they think that there is no need to improve. After all the dungeon gets completed. Completion in GW2, however, is completely different than completion in GW1. In GW1 a team could actually fail, while in GW2 failing isn't really an option (waypoints etc.). Thus, the problem with a complacent mentality in GW2 is the idea that if it works than that's all that matters. This is why a PUG fractals 48 may take almost 2 hours, PUGs think that because a build works there is no need to improve. This should be unacceptable justification for a bad build. These bad builds may work on an event but in a team setting where synergy is important they can drag everyone else down. If you are already at 48, I implore you to continue reading. This next bit gets into the details of how a solid team can be made for FotM and even applied to other areas of the game including Arah and various other dungeons. While you read this please keep an open mind because all of these tactics and mindsets have been practiced and regularly produce smooth, quick runs, and may contridict ideas that the population in general holds for FoTM 40+. - The Team:
*The team setups listed are based off one groups experiences in highend fractals and are not meant to discourage anyone from using any professions. We are still play testing other professions and trying to find builds that prove to be effective in making a fractal run both quick and successful. If you have any build or team suggestions you would like us to try out please feel free to leave them in the comments section and we will adjust this guide accordingly.*
The Team
I am not someone who likes the idea of forcing people to play a certain profession but in fractals 48 sometimes even I am forced to help direct people to an effective build. This has to be done because DPS and strategic skills (like Wall of Reflection) are extremely important in FotM 48. So I have divided each profession into three tiers. Tier 1 is the most desired and 3 the least desired. Tier 2 is a sweet spot of sorts. It is comprised of professions that can either bring great synergy to a team and approach tier 1, and can also be very selfish and approach tier 3. Obviously, a "perfect" team is comprised of a fair balance of tier one professions. This is not always a possibility so using these tiers helps you to decide on which profession to bring. You will want a minimum amount of tier 2 professions and even less tier 3 in an overall team build.
Tier 1: Guardian - Anchor/DPS, Hammer and scepter/focus. Mesmer - DPS, full berzerker. Sword/focus, Greatsword. Warrior - Axe/Mace/warhorn, Greatsword, Longbow.
Tier 2: Elementalist: Favorable = Conjure weapon build with scepter/focus DPS. Unfavorable=pretty much everything else. Necro - Power/DPS. pure condition damage is not favorable. Ask Matti about his build for a very good reference of where a necro should be.
Tier 3: Thief - DPS with Sword/Pistol, Pistol/Pistol. Shortbow only used in specific situations (large mb groups.) Engineer - Power build (grenades). (Engies could be T2 depending on upcoming change accuracy) Ranger - Dont bring them.
When your team is being formed you must consider DPS. The only way to be good at a high fractal is to have good DPS. In 39 and below it is easy to carry someone, while in 40+ it can easily add 30+ minutes to your run if someone is being carried DPS-wise. Below are a few examples of team setups and how to think about all 5 professions in the team.
Example 1: Warrior, Thief, Guardian, Ele, Mesmer.
The first thing you should see is only one guardian. If you have one guardian than you should encourage people to run characters that have greater effectiveness with either DPS or utility (and a combo is best). Ele can provide great support through blinds (on conjure hammer autoattack) and at the same time provide great DPS (with that hammer). If the ele is simply a staff ele or D/D ele than it can do neither of those things effectively. The thief has good DPS but is a one hitter-quitter...at least it gets hit and explodes. It does not provide any team support that is effective (except for stealth which is only used in dredge). The warrior and mesmer are both Tier one (if they are running appropriate builds!). This means that the team should be edited so that the thief can swap and the ele can swap if it isn't a weapons build. In this manner the team can be optimized for only having one guardian.
Example 2: Guardian, Guardian, Guardian, Warrior, Mesmer.
The answer to this group is easy--a guardian must change to a DPS profession. Even though all professions are tier 1, 3 guardians lack all DPS required to effectively complete a fractals run. It would be preferred if one guardian changed to warrior.
Example 3: Guardian, Guardian, Warrior, Warrior, Mesmer
All Tier 1 professions and they have very good DPS output. Nothing changes.
I hope that these examples have illustrated one VERY important concept--DPS IS survivability. At FotM 40+ most situations are just a DPS race. Either you die or you kill your foe first. Now the obvious exception is some support that guardians provide like nonstop reflections, and well-timed aegis. I've heard (and have even made) every argument in the book for support (like ele healing) being required...its not...like at all. Trust me on this. The best bet in any fractals 48 run is DPS and reflects. Now when people hear about the perfect team setup there are two arguments I hear. The first argument is "Well I really enjoy playing this profession." I'm happy people make this argument because it means they have found enjoyment, as I have, in this game. But even though I enjoy playing my thief I dont take it (or any lower tier profession) into fractals 48 because it isn't fair to the rest of my team (which are almost always guildies). It isn't fair to them because I don't bring team synergy, I die almost instantly if I make a single mistake, and my DPS is no justification to that.
The second argument I hear is "my ranger is the only one at 48 reward level!" Their are two solutions to this problem. The first solution is to level up another character to 48. This option is obviously more time consuming but it is also more rewarding. The second option is to bring a top tier profession and then swap out at the end. I know many people that do that. Its also possible to do both. If you get your warrior to 48 and have your ranger there too, you can effectively do two fractals on your warrior but get two daily chests!
- The Builds:
*If you would like a build added to this list because you or someone you know has done successful fractals runs with it, please leave a link to it in the comments section explaining the builds pros and cons. All builds listed here have been play tested by the makers of this guide and have proven to be effective for efficient fractals runs.*BuildsMesmer: Chucks' High DPS MezmerGuardian: Skittles'/Reihn's GuardianWarrior: [Needs to be changed] Elementalist: Standard Conjure EleThe above builds are the builds used by the team for testing, while each of the builds or specific traits are not requirements they have great synergy and have proven results in high end fractals. The MapsBelow I will talk about each fractal map and times will be posted along with major fight strategies in a FotM 48 team setting. - Swampland:
Swampland Fractal Expected time = 8 minutes Acceptable time = <10 minutes "Need to rework approach" time = 10+minutes
Potions: N/A
The first part of this map is pretty straight forward but I would like to note that many people are unaware of some paths for some whisps. The "Top left" whisp spawn point has a path that runs along the west of the map. You can jump a tree that is south of the spawn point and go directly to the spawn point south of it. This path has put me at the door sometimes quicker than people running the spiders spawn point. The second problematic whisp is in the top right corner. The trick to this one is to keep moving. If you miss a jump over a wall, back away from the jumping spot until the red circle appears and then reattempt the jump.
The second area in this fractals is the boss fights. With Bloomhunger you want pure melee DPS. Guardians will need to bring Wall of Reflection and Shield. Its pretty straight forward from there. Mossman is where most of the challenges for a team arise. He tends to stick to one or two people so those people need to be constantly moving in circles and ranging. Everyone else can follow behind him and melee DPS him until they start to take some damage. At that point just range him until you can take some more hits. Guardians can also bring wall and use it when he goes into stealth and have people stand in it to protect from any range attack he will do in stealth. The main key to this fight is a healthy dose of melee and ranged combat as well as keeping track of his location using your mini-map.
- Snowblind:
Snowblind Fractal Expected Time = 15 minutes Acceptable time = <18 minutes "Need to rework approach" time = 19+minutes
Potions: Elemental Slaying Potions while killing the ice elemental, then Svanir Potion for boss.
The first part of this fractal is best done by lighting the bonfire and then running to the outer edges of the area. This spreads aggro and allows the time to take very little damage. When the bonfire needs to be lit make sure to span the torch 1 skill as many times as possible in the fire. It will speed up the melting of the wall.
Once the wall is down everyone should immediately approach the elemental. If someone has died have the team run to the elemental and grab a torch. Run all the around the encampment lighting each fire as you pass it. This is the easiest way to get everyone out of combat. Once everyone is on their feet fight the elemental as normal avoiding all aggro once he teleports you. Bring as much stability and stun breakers as possible for this fight.
The end boss fight is pretty easy and straight forward. Just melee him unless he decides to breathe on you just roll back and take a few extra steps and you will be out of range. It is important to dodge directly backwards and not to the sides because this causes your team to be chilled and take unnecessary damage.
- Cliffside:
Cliffside Expected time = 22 minutes Acceptable time = <26 minutes "Need to rework approach" time = 30+minutes
Potions: Bandit Slaying
This one is pretty straight forward. Simply range the starting boss until he begins to cast his wells than melee him. After he is defeated approach the seals normally. The first tricky seal is his waist. Bring reflects and condi removal for this fight. If you have a lot of blind then us it on recharge. At this point everyone should know where to stack up when approaching this seal.
The next Tricky part is his arm seals. The simplest way to do this is to stack and kill on the far side (his left arm and most southern seal on the mini-map). The best place to stack is just inside the southern door. At this door you want to stand on the south side of the "door frame." This will Line of site all the foes and bring them right to you. If you have the hammer only approach the left/south seal when the rest of your team has pulled most of the mobs into the door.
At the final fight you will need to DPS him done as you did at the start but at 3/4 health you will need to split your team into two groups. (note reference of direction is your back to the colossus looking at the door you entered the platform from.) The first group will have one person who is your highest DPS (usually a warrior). His/her job will be to take out the chanter that spawns to the left of the platform and the one that spawns by the entry. The rest of the team will then kill the chanter to the left and then the chanter that is closest to the cliff/colossus. At this point you want to stack (except for hammer carrier) and then take the stun (no stability) from breaking the seal. If the boss is standing on the grey tile he will then do one of two things. Either drop the hammer again or he will be attackable. If he drops the hammer just repeat the previous steps. If he becomes attackable EVERYONE should immediately melee him non-stop. If done correctly he will remain in a dazed state and not attack until he drops the hammer again. If you have to hit him for the last 1/4 of his health make sure to not keep him dazed to 0%. Instead around 5% stop attacking him and let him fight back then finish him off. If you get to 0% while he is dazed everyone will die!
- Volcanic:
Volcanic Fractal Expected Time = ~15 minutes. Acceptable time = <20 minutes "Need to rework approach" time = 20+ minutes
Potions: Grawl slaying at start. Elemental slaying for final boss.
The only tricky part here is saving all of the sacrifices before the grawl get to them. To effectively do this the team must be max DPS. Stun and knock back when needed. Don't fall into the PuG trap of assigning one person to grab rocks. Instead if a rock drops just have the closest person pick it up. If someone doesn't pick it up then you pick it up. At 48 very few rocks fall so getting them as quick as possible is required.
During the boss fight bring all of your reflects and high hits per second (HPS) weapons. So for example a guardian should have a greatsword instead of a hammer. If there are no reflection spells up than the best way to dodge his agony arrow is to strafe from side to side and quickly as possibly. This means to basically spam the Q and E keys so you look like you are doing a funny dance.
- Underground Facility:
Underground Facility (Dredge) Expected time = 35 minutes (turrets), 40 minutes (bombs) Acceptable time = 40 minutes (turrets), 45 minutes (bombs) "Need to rework approach" time = 1 hour regardless of path.
Potions: Dredge Slaying
Go through this dungeon as you would at any level until it splits to either turrets or bombs. If you get bombs kill the first group and then have someone switch to a thief to solo the bombs. This is the quickest and most painless approach. If no one has a thief alt then complete it by using guardian area control skills like ring of warding and Sanctuary around the bombs when they are placed. If you get turrets just kill everything and then have ranged players kill the turrets. After the turrets are down kill all dredge that spawn (not including the three by the door) by pulling them and line of siting them. Once the three dredge at the doors remain have someone swap to a thief and everyone else kill these three while paying close attention to not pick up the guns they drop. Once the thief is in then three people (not the thief) need to pick up the guns and attack the door. After the first shot the dredge begins to spawn. The thief does not need to use shadow immediately. One full attack can be used and almost 3/4 of another before SR is used, this allows the door to be completed without any aggro and blinding powder used to run away. Using this method allows the mesmer to save time warp for the following champion. Complete this next room using the pipes trick. Once you get to the final boss you need to choose someone to pour for you. If you have a Tier 2 profession then have them do it. If your team is all tier 3 than have a warrior pull the levers. If the boss is the ice elementalist than the person who is pouring needs to wait at the area where the dock for each lever starts. This is done in case the elemental casts his spikes. If he does than the lever puller can just dodge forward to the lever and not get hit by the spikes.
- Urban:
Urban Fractal
Time = N/A
Potions: N/A
This one is really easy. The only difficulty comes at the boss area. To do this pull the closest group to the gate then kill them just outside it. The do the same for the second closest group. If the second group doesn't pull than go to the closest staircase and pull them to that. This will mess up some of the AI for the warriors and you can avoid their hits while standing on the staircase. Try to pull as much as you can before the balista's start hitting your veteran allies. Once the veteran allies are hit and they have run forward kill as much as you can. Spam blinds if you have them and guardians need to keep wall up between the vets and the ranged foes on recharge.
- Aquatic:
Aquatic Fractal Expected time = 15 minutes Acceptable time = <20 minutes; "Need to rework approach" time = 22+minutes
Potions: Krait Slaying
Stack on the statues at the start and pull each group to you. Use as much AoE damage as possible. If you go down tab to a low krait or barracuda and kill it for a res. once you have completed this first area you will be given one of two paths. The deep waters path is pretty striaght forward. The ruins (dolphins) is best done by stacking swiftness and sticking together. Swiftness is stacked by guardians and warriors using their team swiftness and then the mesmer using signet of inspiration to double the boons (Up to 2 minutes of swiftness) . USE SKILL 5 WHENEVER SOMEONE GOES DOWN. Other than that you are pretty much done.
- Uncatergorized:
Uncatagorized fractal (Harpy/Asuran)
Time = N/A
Potions: Inquest Slaying (Supposedly for Golems at end, not required) Charr Slaying for Champ in Middle level.
This one is pretty annoying. You NEED reflects and stability like no ones business while making these jumps. Guardians need to bring "Stand Your Ground," Wall of Reflection, and Shield. Many will say shield isn't reliable (my biggest pet peeve in fractals btw), but it will save you more than it won't. If a reflect isn't up or if shield goes down for a split second, use stability. This will prevent the annoying knock backs from the supercharged troll balls. Once in the champ room complete it as you would any other fractals level. The next challenging part is the final fight. Everyone needs to coordinate reflects and keep them up at all times. At least one guardian should have a greatsword equipped. Once all 4 golems attack you at once the guardian or mesmer should pull them so they ball up. Then DPS like a crazy person. If you see rockets in the air then dodge back and then resume DPS.
A standing rule should be the team moves together. It makes it longer and makes this more difficult when someone is the "hero" and takes on the harpies alone, especially if this is a guardian. They use the stability and reflects for themselves but do not have enough DPS to take them down alone, then the team catches up and they have nothing to block the attacks with and everyone gets knocked off and having to start over.
- The Maw:
The Maw Expected time = 10 minutes Acceptable time = <15 minutes; "Need to rework approach" time = 15+minutes
There is nothing really special about this fractal, kill the two tentacles, make sure to be on the corner of the block when killing the second tentacle. The normal foes can't attack you when you are up here which means you will be at full health when the agony ticks, allows you best chance of winning. Stage 2: Kill the 4 tentacles while pulling in Jade's randomly, be sure to be in corner when last one dies. Stage 3: Kill Tentacles.
*It should be noted that you can switch to another character for progression. For example if you wanted progression on your engineer you would be able to bring a warrior and switch out. This allows you to get the rewards on your high level characters without having to start over on a new toon.
Outlook As I've stated, many may have known most of these strategies is finding a team the provides good DPS and all the players in that team can provide unselfish utility. I've heard so many people say "well this works for me!" Great, go do The shatterer. When it comes to the endgame you should NOT do what works for you! You should do what works for the team, always. I'm sorry for the mountain of text but I know updates are coming to fractals and once the 50 cap is lifted more and more people will want to move up and I want to make sure that members of this guild are ready for the next level of play. DC Comics sucks.
Last edited by Skittles on Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:01 pm; edited 4 times in total | |
| | | Skittles Bridge Troll
Posts : 260 Join date : 2010-11-14 Age : 35 Location : Texas
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:22 pm | |
| Me and some others are going to be constantly updating this.
Next update: Pictures Times for all fractals. | |
| | | Albus [HRUU] Jungle Troll
Posts : 225 Join date : 2010-08-13 Location : Toronto, Canada!
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:53 pm | |
| this post really makes fractals sound fun... | |
| | | AOTT How do you play without Shadow Form?
Posts : 83 Join date : 2013-06-22 Age : 36 Location : CST (GMT-6)
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:56 am | |
| At present my guardian has 40 AR but only PR ~20. I need an ascended backpiece. I can get that right now, actually, but 250 ecto isn't a thrilling prospect for me. My mesmer is PR43 and has 45 AR with perfect zerk gear. I have used my mesmer almost exclusively in FOTM. My warrior has, at best, 20 AR, but perfect zerk gear, and no FOTM PR. I would need guild commendations/laurels to get the accessories. I try to be online to get GC's but things just... happen.
It wouldn't be particularly difficult for me to get a zerker set of armor for my guardian for max DPS, but I find it difficult to survive without at least power/precision/toughness gear (which I currently use). It's mostly because (and I hate to admit it) I haven't got as much time playing my guardian as my warrior, mesmer, or necromancer.
I currently lack the resources to craft an ascended weapon (neither artificer nor weaponsmith at 500.) When the cost of the materials becomes low enough, and I have enough gold, I will have no problem crafting such an item.
IT IS OF NOTE THAT IF YOU HAVE AN ASCENDED WEAPON/LEGENDARY, YOU MUST BE WIELDING IT TO GAIN THE BENEFIT OF THE AGONY RESISTANCE IT CONFERS. IF YOU SWITCH WEAPON SETS TO WEAPONS WITHOUT AR, YOU LOSE THE BENEFIT OF THE AR FROM YOUR ASCENDED/LEGENDARY WEAPON WHEN IT IS NOT BEING USED. THIS MEANS FOR MAXIMUM EFFECTIVENESS, YOU NEED TO HAVE 2 ASCENDED WEAPON SETS (Either 2x 2-handed weapons or 4x 1-handed/offhand weapons.)
If I FIND an appropriate ascended weapon, then I will be ready for 50+ on my mesmer.
I suppose my takeaway is, I've been ready for FOTM48+ for a while on my mesmer, and my guardian is pretty far up there as well.
I totally understand your message here; to quote some random PUG, defensive stats (vitality, toughness, healing, etc.) are a moot point at high level FOTM. If you're getting hit and you're not using some kind of total block (distortion/evasion/block/reflect), you're going to die. DPS is (unfortunately) the only way to go at 40+.
EDIT: I've looked at the builds and confirmed that they are pretty much identical to what I am running.
Last edited by AOTT on Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:56 pm; edited 1 time in total | |
| | | Skittles Bridge Troll
Posts : 260 Join date : 2010-11-14 Age : 35 Location : Texas
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:43 am | |
| Thanks for your reply AOTT!
A few things on AR. I avoided mentioning AR in the guide because it isn't exactly a necessity. Instead AR is more of a crutch. We used to have a guild member that had 25 AR and was doing 48 fractals before 35 AR was even possible. The point is, a player can have all of the AR available but that will not prepare them for a 40+ and definitely not a 50+ (which is still locked and impossible atm). For a very experienced player AR is ONLY used at Maw. Every boss in fractals, with the exception of Maw, has an attack that is completely avoidable.
Most people are bad at fractals because they don't know how to react to the mobs or make major mistakes on the bosses. This is why I wrote this guide. I am also currently getting a third toon into the 30s. When this happens I will be forming A LOT of fotm 38s. I want to do more 38s with the guild so I can spot where people need improvements and who is ready for highend play. There are many people in the guild that do fractals but I haven't had a chance to play with them, people such as you. This way I, and others, can help critique peoples play style to be more efficient at fractals. | |
| | | Benkensven True Noob
Posts : 45 Join date : 2013-01-28
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:14 am | |
| First of all +1 to making this guide You might want to include food/wrenches thats recommended for the slightly harder fractals, like dredgepotion for dredge and elemental for shaman.. possible others just for general smoothness General things: The bosses agony attack usually grants them stability right before they cast it so dodging when you see it makes you evade it. Never use immobolize on the grawl during the falling rocks part as it grants them the swiftness buffs. rings lines, kds knockbacks cripple frozen are better. and i find it a bit weird claiming that DPS is the only thing needed, yet telling guards to anchor when they have some serious dps if specced for it | |
| | | Chucks Jungle Troll
Posts : 110 Join date : 2012-10-21 Age : 32
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:26 pm | |
| 1. You might want to include food/wrenches thats recommended for the slightly harder fractals, like dredgepotion for dredge and elemental for shaman.. possible others just for general smoothness Covering this shortly, just working out where to put it. 2. The bosses agony attack usually grants them stability right before they cast it so dodging when you see it makes you evade it. Forgot about this, nice catch. We'll add it or the possible options to use for blocks on this attack.3. Never use immobolize on the grawl during the falling rocks part as it grants them the swiftness buffs. rings lines, kds knockbacks cripple frozen are better.They seemed to change this back to the way it should, immobilize helps in this part. As for the Anchor guard DPS I'll let Dallas cover that. | |
| | | Perf Jungle Troll
Posts : 158 Join date : 2012-10-21 Age : 37 Location : Raleigh, NC/St. Catharines, ON
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:05 pm | |
| There's a good bit of information here. I'm glad someone took the time to incorporate this all into one thread.
I am somewhat partial to the segregation of tiers in the post that tells people what to bring and what not to bring. But Dallas has a point that dps is extremely important at higher levels. Now that's not to say you shouldn't include players who fall into the t3 category. Toa's official run policy is the person who forms the run is responsible for forming a group that has the best possible chance for success. This means having as many t1 classes as possible.
Once they have more established guidelines for AR (I assume after the next fractals update including the new area) I would like to see some toA based documentation on recommended aR levels. I understand AR isn't actually a requirement. however i have never seen a 48+ team go in with 5 characters of 0 AR. just a suggestion so that people in a similar situation to myself (approaching 48) can expand in fractals (this may need to go in a separate post)
I really like what Dallas has done here. I have explored the idea of working more seriously on fractals and this gives me the information I (as well as most people) would need to make an informed decision.
Thank you | |
| | | Skittles Bridge Troll
Posts : 260 Join date : 2010-11-14 Age : 35 Location : Texas
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:17 pm | |
| Thanks for replying guys!
@perf: You are right when it comes to ToA policy concerning the party formation and its organization. The main issue, and the reason we started this guide, was because even if you formed a perfect party (G,G,W,W,M) someone may still be running a bad build. By A bad build I mean one that is not effectively adding to the synergy of the party and does not provide good dps. An example of this would be a mesmer that runs a scepter/focus instead of a sword/focus. So even though the party leader may get all the right professions, he will need to also ensure that those professions (and the players playing those professions) are running the most efficient builds.
@ben: Chucks got most of it but I'll touch on the anchor v DPS guardian since this is a recurring issue that people bring up. First I want you to know I have run both builds extensively and I find the anchor superior for highend fractals. No matter what build a guardian runs it will never compare to a warriors DPS. With that being said, the party's warriors should be on their feet as much as possible. Since this isn't the easiest of tasks for them their best bet is to not hold aggro. Since most aggro is decided on by armor than to pull that aggro from your main DPS you do not want to have similar armor on something that is supposed to hold that aggro. Thus an anchor build allows warriors in most scenarios to perform at their best.
Next the DPS argument is flawed. This past week I have done a 48 almost everyday. There have been more times than not that I have come out lacking a repair bill (no deaths). This coupled with the idea that I still deal considerable damage with my crit/crit dmg build and survive well because of the toughness/vitality my build offers, allows for my survivability and my overall effectiveness. I have seen MANY DPS guardians go into high level fractals and die over and over and over...while not really providing ANY increased DPS. (and I'm not talking about bad players I'm talking about people like Dar). The first thing to know about a "DPS" guardian is that they have to be on their feet...this becomes difficult (not impossible) when their zerker set literally has no health. So not only do you have a guardian with HP lower than a warriors you have a guardian with about the same toughness...and no where near the same DPS. Compare that to an anchor which can beat on anything for long periods of time coupled with him holding most aggro and letting the warriors dish out the real DPS.
I've saved this language from previous debates but a DPS guardian in a team setting in PvE is utter garbage. It is a build that thinks it can do DPS and help the team but in reality it does little of both. An Anchor build like mine or strifes is designed to have constant DPS and party buffs. If you want to DPS play a warrior. If you want to be a good guardian play an anchor and provide efficient and effective synergy with your team. As I've said, I've run both extensively. When this argument first surfaced I tested it over and over and because of the time I've spent testing both builds I will not waste my breath on this argument here again.
P.S. this is all in the context of a 48 fractals. | |
| | | Benkensven True Noob
Posts : 45 Join date : 2013-01-28
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:35 pm | |
| @dallas..seems like our experience with the builds are very diffrent but it is as you said this is not the topic to talk about it.
However.. You guys should probably add links to the builds people generally should be using | |
| | | Skittles Bridge Troll
Posts : 260 Join date : 2010-11-14 Age : 35 Location : Texas
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:59 pm | |
| Yeah we are trying to figure out how to add builds without taking up too much space or making it confusing. those are all things to come though. | |
| | | Frosty Needs To Get Off The Forum
Posts : 1028 Join date : 2011-01-05 Age : 40 Location : St. Louis, MO
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:33 pm | |
| - Skittles wrote:
- Yeah we are trying to figure out how to add builds without taking up too much space or making it confusing. those are all things to come though.
Links to Into the Mists build set ups are nice to cut down on clutter and get all your information across in one place -- traits/utilities/armor+runes/weps+sigils/food+oils. | |
| | | Chucks Jungle Troll
Posts : 110 Join date : 2012-10-21 Age : 32
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:53 am | |
| Updated Mesmer build with guide. | |
| | | woo tang clan Bridge Troll
Posts : 496 Join date : 2010-08-10
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:54 am | |
| Best part was abyss's guides
" [*]Discipline: Highest priority. Make sure someone has it.
[*]Strength: Second Priority. If there are at least two warriors in the party, one of them should have this.
[*]Defense: No.
[*]Tactics: Stahp. | |
| | | Chucks Jungle Troll
Posts : 110 Join date : 2012-10-21 Age : 32
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:33 pm | |
| Updated to allow for quicker navigation | |
| | | Perf Jungle Troll
Posts : 158 Join date : 2012-10-21 Age : 37 Location : Raleigh, NC/St. Catharines, ON
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:56 am | |
| its prob a lil late for this. can we redo the thread title? its a bit undefined for forum commoners | |
| | | Raccoon True Noob
Posts : 8 Join date : 2013-08-29
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:30 pm | |
| Wouldn't it be better to have a bit more build diversity though? For example, rather than having 2 guardians running tanky build, we'd have one guardian running shout-based tanky build and one guardian running consecration-based dps build. And I believe an elementalist, thief, or engineer would be more useful in fractal than the mesmer. At the presence of 2 guardians, the extra relection and pulls that the mesmer can provide doesn't matter much. ====================== =======Default 3======== ====================== The default 3 members of the party would be 2 guardians and 1 warrior. 1 Tanky Guardian [ AH-Based] - High toughness and lots of self-heals, combine with guardian's arsenal of defensive boons make you pretty much a walking fortress. [ Blind-Spamming] - Sacrificing self-heals to spam blinds constantly, combining with the 2nd guardian's blinds, normal mobs won't be able to deliver many hits to party members. Doesn't work on bosses with defiants and dredges (immune to blinds), but otherwise is a much better defensive-support option compare to AH. 1 DPS guardian [ Consecration DPS] - In fractal, we usually only have room for one shout anyway. Abandoning all shouts (leaving them to the tanky guardian to bring), we can bring Purging Flame and/or Hallowed Ground for a firefield to blast for mights. This build provide the same projectile reflect/absorb as the tanky build, and blind enemies constantly. 1 DPS Warrior [ Axe/Mace-Axe/Warhorn] - Axe/Mace-Axe/Warhorn is great here because it provides speed buffs and a blast finisher (warhorn #5). This is the best weapon combination for this team, also great if a Lightning-Hammer ele is present. ==================== =======Last 2======== ==================== The remaining 2 party members are flexible. Another Warrior?A 2nd axe/mace-axe/warhorn warrior would be great, but going any more than 2 warriors in a team wouldn't be good because we'd be missing out the amazing utilities that other classes bring. 1 Conjurer Ele[ Lightning-Hammer Ele] - At the presence of a lightning hammer elementalist AND consecration guardian, warrior do not need to bring For Great Justice. Between the fire fields from this ele and the guardian, we can keep a constant 20+ mights and over 1 min of fury, without For Great Justice. (Also, Fire Rush against a wall is just too good if the opportunity arises.) Mesmer, Thief, Engineer?Also, if a mesmer is presence, he/she can pick up the elementalist's lightning hammer to deal good damage AND give even more blinds + blast finishers. A good choice, but I honestly see bringing an ele is more useful than a mesmer. Similarly, between a thief and an engineer, I find Engineer to be a greater asset in a team compare to a thief. Engineer can bring ~12 or ~14 secs of party-wide stealth when necessary, can stack over 20 vulnerabilities on normal mobs and maintain 14+ vulnerablities on bosses by himself, have access to the 2nd-highest on-demand party-wide heals in the game, etc. Engineer are just a great generalist, jack-of-all-trades type of class. I don't have a level-80 ranger yet so I won't comment on it. As for necromancer, well, let's just say that any of the above classes are more useful than a necromancer. P.S. By the way, this forum's WYSIWYG editor is a bit lacking. >_< | |
| | | Abyss Jungle Troll
Posts : 208 Join date : 2011-02-05 Age : 33
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:06 pm | |
| I have a few problems with running Axe/Mace-Axe/Warhorn in fractals. It's a good combination in dungeons where you're sitting on the face of every boss you fight, but that isn't the case in most fractals.
My first problem is it's almost completely useless on any of the trash mob groups. They already die so fast that stacking might beforehand is almost a complete waste of effort to coordinate. Yes, might is good, but when your fights last around 20 seconds you aren't saving very much time at all by stacking it so purposefully. You'll use it once before the fight, and then by the time it recharges (20 seconds), the fight should be about over. This applies everywhere you fight trash mobs. For comparison purposes, an average axe auto attack should do about 5466 per crit (which should be every hit) with only the 3 stacks of might from FGJ. With an additional 3 stacks from warhorn blasting that number becomes 5665 per crit. That's about a 3.6% damage increase. Take into account that not everyone in the party will crit as often as a warrior, and the increase becomes much less significant. Even assuming everyone in the party got a 3.6% damage increase, the reduction in time of a 20 second fight would be about 0.72 seconds. You can keep it as a swap, but blasting is pretty pointless.
My other problem is in regards to boss fights, and this is also where I'll concede that it can be useful in some fractals. When you're fighting some bosses you'll want to use a ranged weapon. This is most likely going to be a longbow. You'll throw down a fire field, blast it with skill 3, swap to warhorn, blast, wait 4 more seconds and swap back. You'll get 6 stacks of might in a few seconds, which is good. It's a problem because it's technically not Axe/Mace-Axe/Warhorn, and most of the time you won't be sitting with a longbow in your hand. You'll only be using a longbow on the first fight of Cliffside, the last fight of Volcanic, in Underground Facility, and possibly on mossman. In Urban people are spread out so there isn't an emphasis on might stacking, although it would still be useful for personal DPS. In spite of all of the positives here, the base damage modifiers, crit damage and skill specific coefficients are also significantly lower on longbow (SSC for longbow autoattack is only .6 compared to the average SSC of the axe's autoattack which is 1.2, BDM lowers by .05, and Crit Damage lowers by .1). This means the DPS increase provided by a might stack gets reduced fairly significantly compared to the 3.6% increase while wielding axe/mace. When you consider that you also probably won't have a fire field to blast every 20 seconds due to skill priority the DPS increase is reduced even more than when might was up for the entirety of the fight. This is slightly remedied by the doubling of might stacks from the 2 blasts, but the returns are still fairly low.
I know nothing of Guardians, so I won't comment on that. I can say I completely agree with your comments on eles and necros. | |
| | | Raccoon True Noob
Posts : 8 Join date : 2013-08-29
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:59 pm | |
| - Abyss wrote:
- My first problem is it's almost completely useless on any of the trash mob groups. They already die so fast that stacking might beforehand is almost a complete waste of effort to coordinate.
This is assuming that the warrior is the only one that's blasting; no, no, this is a team effort. Every member in the team (using the builds listed above) has fatal flaw, and the strategy itself has fatal flaws, but the team synergy helps every member cover each other's weaknesses. The firefield comes from the elementalist then the consecration guardian. This means at least half the fight the firefield would be up. 1st Point:Warrior would only blast once (at the beginning of the fight), and dps away. It's fine if we go axe/mace-greatsword and don't blast at all, too, because the continuous blasts come from the elementalist and guardian, which are part of their attacks anyway (or elementalist and mesmer, if a mesmer is present in the team). 2nd Point:You're thinking of stacking mights then enter combat. No, no, that's mistaken. This is stacking mights as we enter combat. - Abyss wrote:
- My other problem is in regards to boss fights, and this is also where I'll concede that it can be useful in some fractals. When you're fighting some bosses you'll want to use a ranged weapon.
We stay in melee most of the time. We should only switch to longbow when necessary, rather than always carrying it around and waste a valuable weapon set. Let's take a look at the list: - quick list:
Swamp Fractal Bloomhunger: Full melee Mossman: Full range or mix range and melee
Urban Battleground (the Ascalon Fractal) Range on the hot oil at the beginning (if an ele is present, full melee because Ice Bow's Ice Storm kill those oils so fast and can hit 2 oils each time), melee the rest of the way, until boss where we have to go range.
Snowblind Fractal (the one with ice ele and Sons of Svanir) Full melee until the final boss
Underground Facility Fractal (the dredge fractal) Full melee until final boss
Volcanic Fractal Full melee until final boss (or could go range at mid-boss, too)
Uncategorized Fractal (the one with lots of knock-back harpies and the Asura with golems) Full melee, a bit of mixed melee/range at mid-boss (Old Tom)
Cliffside Fractal (the one with the Curtis Hammer) Mix melee/range at teh beginning, then melee until final boss
Underwater Fractal Underwater weapons, different discussion here
We mostly only go range at bosses. We have plenty of time to equip a longbow before entering these boss fights. In these cases, we don't need to bother with warhorn blasting at all. . These are team builds; they work because of the team and they exist because we have a team. Taking them individually, they're all weak. Let's take quick look: Guardian build: The blinds from the guardian alone aren't enough, but the blinds from 2 guardians and the ele or one guardian and the ele are enough to keep the mobs almost always blind. For examples, the consecration dps guardian wouldn't survive long in 48 fractal without the tanky guardian helping out. Warrior build: The build is rather well-known, but hte utilities and skillsets are selfless. For example it assume that the fury would come from another source (because we choose to bring Warbanner instead of Signet of Rage), etc. If this was individual play, 30/25/0/0/15 would be a better build. Elementalist Build: A 30/0/0/10/30 would stack mights and fury much, much, much better than this lightning hammer build. It can stack ~20 to 25 mights and over 1.5 to 2 mins of fury alone. Alone! But the lightning hammer works better here because everyone in the team contribute. The build listed here only stack up to ~45 or so secs of fury and ~15 mights, the rest come from other party members (via blasting, Virtue of Justice, etc). Many more to list, if given the time and context. But hey, the post's getting long | |
| | | Abyss Jungle Troll
Posts : 208 Join date : 2011-02-05 Age : 33
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:51 pm | |
| - Raccoon wrote:
- This is assuming that the warrior is the only one that's blasting; no, no, this is a team effort. Every member in the team (using the builds listed above) has fatal flaw, and the strategy itself has fatal flaws, but the team synergy helps every member cover each other's weaknesses.
The firefield comes from the elementalist then the consecration guardian. This means at least half the fight the firefield would be up.
1st Point: Warrior would only blast once (at the beginning of the fight), and dps away. It's fine if we go axe/mace-greatsword and don't blast at all, too, because the continuous blasts come from the elementalist and guardian, which are part of their attacks anyway (or elementalist and mesmer, if a mesmer is present in the team).
2nd Point: You're thinking of stacking mights then enter combat. No, no, that's mistaken. This is stacking mights as we enter combat. You're misinterpreting what I was trying to say there. I'll admit that I worded it poorly for the point I was trying to get across. I was providing an example of a single blast finisher to show the maximum effect a warrior with a warhorn can produce when it comes to might stacking, and the difference the warhorn makes is very negligible. This isn't taking into account any other blast finishers for a reason (for the record mesmers have none), and that is because I'm talking only in the context of what weapon sets the warrior is or should be using. This is not by any means an argument against might stacking. Of course the fire fields are going to come from somewhere else because there was no mention of a longbow in that part of the post. Maybe I could have clarified that more by mentioning it less than 0 times in the paragraph, but I digress. Of course the might stacks are popped by the warrior before entering combat, because you'd be attacking less otherwise. I'd like to clarify again that I'm not arguing with the inclusion of might stacking by way of blast finishers. In that first paragraph I'm arguing against a single 20 second cooldown blast finisher on a Warrior for fighting trash mobs. - Quote :
quick list: | Swamp Fractal Bloomhunger: Full melee Mossman: Full range or mix range and melee
Urban Battleground (the Ascalon Fractal) Range on the hot oil at the beginning (if an ele is present, full melee because Ice Bow's Ice Storm kill those oils so fast and can hit 2 oils each time), melee the rest of the way, until boss where we have to go range.
Snowblind Fractal (the one with ice ele and Sons of Svanir) Full melee until the final boss
Underground Facility Fractal (the dredge fractal) Full melee until final boss
Volcanic Fractal Full melee until final boss (or could go range at mid-boss, too)
Uncategorized Fractal (the one with lots of knock-back harpies and the Asura with golems) Full melee, a bit of mixed melee/range at mid-boss (Old Tom)
Cliffside Fractal (the one with the Curtis Hammer) Mix melee/range at teh beginning, then melee until final boss
Underwater Fractal Underwater weapons, different discussion here |
We mostly only go range at bosses. We have plenty of time to equip a longbow before entering these boss fights. In these cases, we don't need to bother with warhorn blasting at all. I wrote this once in the warrior build linked in the original post, but I can explain it here so you don't have to try and find it. - Abyss' DPS Warrior Build wrote:
- A ranged weapon is recommended for fighting the following bosses. This means a longbow unless otherwise noted. Separated by fractal they include:
- Swampland: Mossman (Melee way is an exception)
- Urban: Captain Ashym at <50% Health
- Snowblind: None
- Underground Facility: Dredge Powersuit (Rifle), Rampaging Ice Elemental (Rifle)
- Volcanic: Legendary Imbued Shaman
- Uncategorized: Champion Fire Shaman, Champion Ettin
- Cliffside: Archdiviner (First fight only)
Since I haven't elaborated on it yet in the guide, these are the only fights were longbow should be equipped but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be used. The differences between our lists are the ones I'll elaborate on a little bit.
- Swampland: Mossman is technically a difference, and I haven't written about this yet, but you're mostly going to be following him around and beating on him with an axe unless he's attacking you. He focuses on one person and if you stay behind him you won't get hit very often in melee range. Longbow swap is good if you take heavy damage and need to pull back for a bit.
- Urban: You will be in melee range of Ashym until he hits about 50% health, then you will range, so you'll want axe/mace-longbow.
- Snowblind: There is absolutely no reason to range this guy.
- Underground facility: No differences
- Volcanic: No differences except there is no point to ranging the Shaman during your first fight with him. Just max melee and don't stand in his AoE.
- Uncategorized: Stand inside Old Tom. You'll take more damage against him if you range him. You don't want range in the final fight either, as you'll want to kill things as quickly as possible.
- Cliffside: There's no point in ranging him in the final fight unless you aren't the warrior killing the cultists around the room. You'll want to be able to deal as much damage as possible for this fight, and you only actually have to dodge him until he drops the hammer the first time.
I'm not going to argue with the rest of your post because everything else you're saying is accurate. Might stacking is good, team synergy is good. We're only at odds because we were apparently talking about two reasonably different things. I will make one more point about the 30/25/0/0/15 build you mentioned though. You would be losing 150 power, 15% crit chance, 15% crit damage, and a few stacks of maintainable might for a 10% base damage modifier, 250 precision (11% crit chance), and about 3 stacks of maintainable vulnerability. I'd say that's a negligible difference. | |
| | | Mitch Admin
Posts : 728 Join date : 2010-08-09 Age : 46 Location : Indianapolis
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:49 am | |
| Do not turn this into a debate thread over what is good and what is not or I will lock it. This post was designed by a handful of officers that are experimenting with various tactics and combinations in high level fractals. Their guide is not even complete yet, as this is a work in progress.
If you have suggestions for them or would like to brainstorm other ideas with them please make general notes about the changes you are proposing here and then discuss it IN GAME or ON TS.
A difference of opinions on a forum only turns into rage-wars. Talk it out on TS. | |
| | | Draezha Jungle Troll
Posts : 132 Join date : 2013-06-20 Age : 33 Location : Colorado
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:11 pm | |
| Hey, I was shown a strategy yesterday on cliffside fractal by digilodger. It went really smooth and I'd love to suggest it if you haven't tried it before. The strategy is for the chest seal. Hit me up in game or on TS. | |
| | | Skittles Bridge Troll
Posts : 260 Join date : 2010-11-14 Age : 35 Location : Texas
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:06 pm | |
| Made Some updates for quality and added Ele Conjure build
To be added: Going to completely change the team section. Popular DPS Guardian Build Some updated tactics for the individual fractals | |
| | | Chucks Jungle Troll
Posts : 110 Join date : 2012-10-21 Age : 32
| Subject: Re: Examining the Fractals Paradigm Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm | |
| Updated to include Maw / Suggestions for Progression | |
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