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 New Warrior traits tomorrow, yay! Theorycraft or something.

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Abyss
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PostSubject: New Warrior traits tomorrow, yay! Theorycraft or something.   Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:08 pm

In case you haven't seen, the leaked changes have been posted here.  They may not be true, but it's worth looking into a little early nonetheless.  I didn't see any posts discussing the changes and decided to make a thread specifically for warriors, because they're the bestest.

The key things to note here are the changes to Berserker's Power in the Strength line and Heightened Focus in the Discipline line.  Since most people are probably used to running the standard 20/25/0/10/15 greatsword axe/mace build, and most of the power greatswords get in this build comes from the 25 points spec'd into the Arms line, this changes things quite a bit.  Being grandmaster traits, BP and HF are going to require 30 points in both the strength line and the discipline line respectively.  If you're going to take both, this means no 25 points in arms, and greatsword damage is severely reduced.  This opens up a weapon swap in place of greatsword.

More traits that are relevant to what I'm about to throw out are Sharpened Axes (Disc), Dual Wielding (Str), and Axe Mastery (Str).  You may have noticed Axe Mastery was neither nerfed nor buffed.  In the past this trait was left alone because the damage increase from Dual Wielding is quite a bit better.  However, with Dual Wielding being moved to the adept tier in the strength line both can be in use at once.  This gives an increase of 10% to crit damage and 5% to all damage.  To keep these buffs an axe will need to be wielded in the main hand with either an axe, mace, or sword offhand.  Sword offhand is still pretty bad, but axe 5 is getting a 50% damage increase in this patch.  

This provides good incentive to run 30/x/x/x/30 with axe/axe and axe/mace.  Having axe on mainhand for both weapon sets allows you to swap at any point in the auto attack chain without interrupting the auto attack.  This is especially important now that the majority of axe auto attack damage comes from the end of the chain.  If you were running axe/axe with a greatsword swap, you'd have to pay attention to your auto attacks and swap according to that instead of your greatsword cooldowns.  Doing that, however, lowers dps from the greatsword even further because you aren't making effective use of its cooldowns.  Swapping axes based on offhand coldowns allows swaps without interrupting the bulk of the auto attack damage, so you have the best of both worlds.

Sharpened Axes in the discipline line reduces the cooldown on axe skills by 20% while increasing adrenaline gain on axe criticals.  Mace offhand is still going to be useful for its utility with vulnerability and a knockdown.  Throw in 10 points to tactics for Empowered, which will increase damage per boon on the warrior, and you have a solid dps boost for the last 10 trait points that you could switch out for Empower Allies if you want to give teammates 150 power.

The adept trait is fairly interchangeable.  If you're in a fight like GL in Arah you can take Vigorous Focus for a little extra dodging power if you find yourself stuck in the "shit dome" and need to Balanced Stance out.  Signet Mastery will also be helpful when running Signet of Rage.  It also further reduces the cooldown of Healing Signet to 12s, which isn't really a good burst heal, but if you're in a situation where constant health regeneration would be useful, such as in most of the dungeon runs formed in guild chat (CoE primarily comes to mind), it's nice to only have 12 seconds of downtime when you want to heal.  As far as its general usefulness compared to Healing Surge, that requires math and I'm too lazy to get to that right now.  Suffice it to say a burst heal is probably still more useful in harder areas such as high level Fractals (because I'm so very knowledgeable about Fractals) and Arah.

tl/dr; 
30/0/0/10/30 
Str: Dual Wielding, Axe Mastery, Berserker's Power
Tactics: Empowered/Empower Allies
Disc: Signet Mastery, Sharpened Axes, Heightened Focus
Set 1: Axe/Axe
Set 2: Axe/Mace

A greatsword build could still be viable, but it would probably need something like 30/25/x/x/x to function as well as an axe build.  
So, go ahead and discuss this build, introduce your build, provide some insight on greatswords versus  a/a a/m, whatever warrior build related with this patch.

Edited for more clarity on GS hate and a little bit of de-wall-of-texting.

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PostSubject: Re: New Warrior traits tomorrow, yay! Theorycraft or something.   Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:29 pm

Your axe setup does look viable; for me it's a choice between this and 30/30/0/10/0 with GS/rifle. The latter setup should allow me to switch off my brain completely, but I'm not sure which will end up being effective. I'd rather leave the number crunching until the patch is live, or at least have these update notes officially confirmed.
Here's the full build I had in mind:
Strength:
Great Fortitude - with 3000 power (I think that's a reasonable amount), this will add 1500 health
Slashing Power - +10% overall damage is almost as much as Dual Wielding and Axe Mastery combined, except it's for GS (and spear..!)
Berserker's Power - this trait will become 25% more effective than it is now
Arms:
Rending Strikes - love this trait and it's apparently not getting changed
Forceful Greatsword - with the increased use of GS, this'll be even more useful than it is now
Last Chance - the leaked notes are a bit confusing, but however it works out this is clearly being buffed
Tactics:
Empowered - definitely too good to not bring it

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PostSubject: Re: New Warrior traits tomorrow, yay! Theorycraft or something.   Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:23 pm

I can see Last Chance being very useful in a boss fight.  I think the only thing I would change if I ran that trait setup would be the adept strength trait and the weapon swap.  I've never really been a fan of rifles; especially for a dps weapon.  I think Dual Wielding with axe/axe swap would be pretty viable dps during hundred blades and whirlwind cooldowns, simply because greatsword auto attacks are pretty lackluster.  Then again, there aren't 15 points in discipline for the 5 second weapon swap, so a second weapon set might not be a good idea for that build anyway.  Looks pretty interesting though.

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PostSubject: Re: New Warrior traits tomorrow, yay! Theorycraft or something.   Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:03 pm

Well this happened 

  • Whirling Axe: Increased the damage by 50% in PvP only. 



That means no a/a

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PostSubject: Re: New Warrior traits tomorrow, yay! Theorycraft or something.   Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:10 pm

It's only a little bit retarded.

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PostSubject: Re: New Warrior traits tomorrow, yay! Theorycraft or something.   Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:52 am

Well since axe isn't as good as we expected, tests indicate that my setup is best. The only thing to bear in mind is that one warrior in each party should have the Empower Allies (Tactics II) trait - the rest should stick with Empowered, because Empower Allies does not stack.

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PostSubject: Re: New Warrior traits tomorrow, yay! Theorycraft or something.   Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:57 pm

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQJARUjcOtwNPuP4wBAzjfAqozDqYqpUByA-jwxAYrhoRWCC9JaJviox2GKiGruGT5SEVDA-e

This is what I've come up with and what I generally use (or rather, will use once I have, y'know, all ascended accessories and enough cash to buy all those sigils.)  Agree?  Disagree?

My logic here is the superior sigil of fire is better than the bloodlust because 1. warrior dies a lot and 2. AoE BOOM that goes off frequently.  Another good sigil might just be Force +5% damage consistently.

The utility skills:  Should ALWAYS have Endure Pain and either Shake it Off or Balanced Stance.  Third utility skill should be any of the banners.  Elite should always be Warbanner.  Note that the boons Warbanner puts out STACK with other Warbanners dropped by other warriors.

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PostSubject: Re: New Warrior traits tomorrow, yay! Theorycraft or something.   Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:41 pm

The main problems I would have with that build are:
1) Lack of the Fast Hands trait.  Greatsword auto attack is just garbage, and you're going to be stuck on it once your Hundred Blades and Whirlwind are on cooldown.
2) Rifles just aren't that good.  As far as ranged weapons go, longbows generally shell out better dps, and they have the advantage of a fire field AND a blast finisher.  It also gives you a second 2-handed weapon, lowering the number of sigils you're going to be using.  Having it in the event of a boss fight that requires range is good, but a longbow would still be preferable.
3) The rifle again.  Greatswords are higher dps than axes in the event that enemies are either pulled against a wall, or the fight lasts less than about 2 weapon swaps.  That first scenario is key in this because this is the case in the most commonly ran dungeons in ToA (CoE and CoF in particular).  There is simply not a need for a ranged weapon if it isn't the longbow (because fire fields.  AoE might is strong) because the dps is so much lower than an axe/mace swap.
4) This goes back to 2.  The sigils in this build are good, but there simply aren't enough of them.  Fire is absolutely the best sigil to run for dps, but losing that bloodlust for an energy, which could be put on an axe (and swapped out for an axe with force when the stacks are full), is cutting your power by 250 points.  You could be running both if you had axe/mace.
5) Endure pain is good in some cases, but facerolling dps is not really one of them.  So long as you dodge properly and don't forget about Strength's minor trait Building Momentum (which restores a dodge when you burst), you'll literally be set for life.  It's more useful in sPvP and WvW than it is in PvE.  Swap that out for FGJ and you're set there.

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PostSubject: Re: New Warrior traits tomorrow, yay! Theorycraft or something.   Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:02 pm

So you'd do something more like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNAR3ZjcOJvNPuP4wBAzjfAqoLDqYSfgOA-jwxAYLhMCSmJLCRJviox2GKiGruGT5SEVDA-e

The problem that I have with Fast Hands is you're sacrificing Empower Allies (+150 party-wide power) or Empowered (+damage/boons) for your weapon swap.

I agree rifle sucks and I agree with your axe/mace.  My logic is that everyone should be carrying a ranged weapon of some sort, so that's why it was there.  

You can "replace" any defensive skills with "dodge better".  I have found Endure Pain to be essential, so I suppose I'm just not that great at dodging.

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PostSubject: Re: New Warrior traits tomorrow, yay! Theorycraft or something.   Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:11 pm

AOTT wrote:
My logic is that everyone should be carrying a ranged weapon of some sort, so that's why it was there. 

Everyone should have one, but it's not necessarily imperative that you have it equipped. In fact most times it's illogical and you lose out on other benefits by having it equipped. If you know dungeons well enough and what you're going up against then you'll know when is the right time to equip a ranged weapon. More times than not, you don't need it.

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PostSubject: Re: New Warrior traits tomorrow, yay! Theorycraft or something.   Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:21 pm

Now that I think about it though, if you specc'd for Fast Hands you'd get that 15% crit damage bonus, so you might just do more damage than if you specc'd for Empower Allies/Empowered anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: New Warrior traits tomorrow, yay! Theorycraft or something.   Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:43 pm

Introduction:
I was bored, so here's some math.

Methods:
Formulae:

 
So, for BaseDmg, all of the quantities should be the same for all 3 builds.  WeaponDmg is the same because it's the same weapon (a berserker's GS), Power is the same because Strength is traited the same and all gear is identical, the same skills are being used, and the same target is being attacked.  We can just make up a number because it will scale linearly in the AvgDmg equation.  Easy.  The number that was used in the equation was 1000 because it's easy.

So, what will and what won't scale linearly?  Any base damage modifiers such as slashing power and scholar runes will scale linearly.  Both are used in all three builds (unless you don't use scholar runes, but then it's still consistent throughout the builds), so they don't have to be included.  Critical damage will not scale linearly, so whatever the critical damage is with all equipment and traits is what will be used in the formula.  CritChance is being used as the independent variable, and AvgDmg is the dependent.  

The Builds:
30/0/0/10/30 : 30% Extra Crit Damage, 0 Base Modifier
30/30/0/10/0:  0 Extra Crit Damage, 10% Base Modifer
30/25/0/10/5:  5% Extra Crit Damage, 10% Base Modifier

Unmodified Base Damage10% Modified Base Damage30/0 Crit Damage30/30 Crit Damage30/25 Crit Damage
100011001.230.930.98
AvgDmg was then calculated using these values for every CritChance from 0.01 to 100.  0% was left out because I forgot about it until writing this and I'm too lazy to add a row into a spreadsheet.  Those numbers should be obvious anyway.  Whatever.  In the spreadsheet, which will be attached, AvgDmg for 30/25/0/10/5 used the 30/30 CritDmg column, and the formula was modified to add an extra 0.05 to that value.  Max adrenaline was assumed for all CritDmg columns to account for the 15% increase from Berserker's Power.

Results:


30/30 has a higher damage output than 30/0 until 64% CritChance, at which point it remains less effective than 30/25 and 30/0.  30/25 is more effective than 30/0 until 99% CritChance, at which point it remains less effective.  At 100% CritChance, the highest performing build is 30/0 with an average damage of 2730, the second highest performing build is 30/25 with an average damage of 2728, and the lowest performing build is 30/30 with an average damage of 2673.



Discussion:


The numbers reflect only Greatsword damage, and do not take into account the quickness provided from the master trait in 30/30.  I was too lazy to calculate it.  It also doesn't take into account rotations between GS and Axe/Mace, and says nothing of vulnerability.  That being said, if sitting on GS is the intent of the player, the 30/25 build outperforms the others up to any reasonable level of CritChance.  I mainly did this to show how ridiculously close the damage is with these builds, and how silly it is to discuss which one should be used.  Also, the base damage used could be manipulated to show larger or smaller differences in the damage outputs of these builds, but looking at them in context would still show how close the damage truly is.   For example, doubling the base damage doubles the differences between AvgDmg values; they still scale the same.  The attached Excel file has all of the values for all three builds, so you can look at them if you want.  There's not really anything spectacular in there though.
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PostSubject: Re: New Warrior traits tomorrow, yay! Theorycraft or something.   Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:21 am

Wheres the tl;dr?

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PostSubject: Re: New Warrior traits tomorrow, yay! Theorycraft or something.   Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:35 pm

Abyss wrote:

The numbers reflect only Greatsword damage, and do not take into account the quickness provided from the master trait in 30/30.  I was too lazy to calculate it.  It also doesn't take into account rotations between GS and Axe/Mace, and says nothing of vulnerability.  That being said, if sitting on GS is the intent of the player, the 30/25 build outperforms the others up to any reasonable level of CritChance.  I mainly did this to show how ridiculously close the damage is with these builds, and how silly it is to discuss which one should be used.

 This is the by far the MOST important part in this entire post.

I cannot begin to stress how much I dislike heated discussions about what is "technically" more effective than something else when its clear that the game is designed so that the changes described ultimately don't make that big of a difference. 
If the difference between the minimum and maximum of damage done with a greatsword is less than 100 damage then why the hell is it even worth debating? Especially when someone else in your party puts an extra stack of vulnerability on your foe and makes up for it?

Yes I am fully aware of the differences that armor and weapon stats, trinkets, sigils & runes can make. That is the part that is worth discussing in a generalized aspect.
Want to be helpful to your team without spending tons of money and time trying to figure out the most "effective build"? Don't die or spend half the fight in the downed position. Enough said.

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PostSubject: Re: New Warrior traits tomorrow, yay! Theorycraft or something.   Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:11 am

Mitch wrote:
Want to be helpful to your team without spending tons of money and time trying to figure out the most "effective build"? Don't die or spend half the fight in the downed position. Enough said.

 I do some of my best work from the downed state.

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