tearsoftheascended.enjin.com
 
HomeMemberlistFAQSearchUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Build Wars!

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Mitch
Admin
avatar

Posts : 728
Join date : 2010-08-09
Age : 40
Location : Indianapolis

PostSubject: Build Wars!   Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:35 pm

Rider posted this in our last forum. its a good topic to discuss so I copy/pasted it here. I take ZERO credit for the words below.

---------------------------------------------------------------


As a bit of background info, one of my favorite parts of GW1 was creating something that worked to do a certain job or fulfilled a particular purpose. It never necessarily had to be the fastest or best way to do something, but instead was elegant yet reliable. No surprise I ended up in ToA.

Now as we've moved into GW2 the game mechanics have changed and professions are no longer tied into specific roles. The ideas of dedicated tanks and healers (at least the way we know them) are about as stylish as parachute pants and whitey tighties. Instead there are three different roles that any class is able to trait for. They are Support, Control, and DPS.

Just as a brief explanation of each role Support is mainly boons and dabbles in healing and damage reduction, Control is non-damaging conditions (blind, KD, daze, etc.) and physically moving your target into a position that improves your tactical advantage, and DPS is the all powerful pew-pew, whether it be from hitting something with your weapon or a barrage of conditions. For a more in depth look into each role follow the links to the wiki.

I think it is fair to say that for a team to have a good chance of success there needs to be a balanced mix of these three elements. The mixture itself may look different for different places, but all three elements should be represented. Luckily, as I stated earlier, every profession has the ability to run each of these three roles. Yes, it would mean re-traiting from time to time, but that costs less than mapping from one side of the world to the other as a level 80 character....a mere 5 copper per trait point. That means if you have to re-trait all 70 points your grand total will be 3.5 silver. This would be a minor investment to help contribute to your team's overall success.

Now to the reason for this post. I am proposing two things. First is that we start forming groups using these terms. This is nothing new to most of us who are used to seeing "GLF HB spiker to go" or "need T2". Now we would just ask for support, control, or dps/damage when forming. The great thing is that anyone on any profession can fill these roles. Whatever your main is, you would know your overall job, and have a general idea of how you would need to be traited.

Second, I think that it would be good to start forming our own database of suggested builds on the forums. I realize not everybody likes creating builds, and would much rather just look up what works best and just dive into playing. This would be a wonderfully monitored resource for these people. Instead of just pulling some random build off the internet, they will have a list of builds that meet our guild's expectations. Other people are very particular about creating and tweaking their builds. Most great artists love to show off their work, and inventors are always looking for constructive criticism on how to improve their ideas...this would serve as a place for them to do both.

I envision this being split into the obvious three sections; control, support, and dps. Each category would then have a list of each profession where the respective builds would be kept. As people tried the different builds, the ones that do the job effectively would then be added to the sticky within that profession. It would almost be like our own private pvx.

The skill slots, trait builds, and weapon sets can all be created in one place, here, and the link can then be posted to the forums in the appropriate section.

Naturally this same setup could be used to share and store sPvP and WvW builds.

Like anything else, I'm sure when more minds think about this there will be more directions we can go, or decide not to go. This is just an idea, but I really do think we need to find a way to be a bit more organized in our team set-ups. This would allow us to do that, while avoid leaving people out who only want to have one level 80.

Thanks for reading....or scrolling to the bottom

_________________
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Broken Arietta
 
avatar

Posts : 279
Join date : 2012-06-22
Age : 25
Location : United Kingdom

PostSubject: Re: Build Wars!   Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:02 pm

The only problem I feel that this may inject is the fact that you can't "re-spec" armor and equipment.

I guess at this stage of the game it isn't likely people have multiple armor sets for each character. I'll give a brief run down of what I mean by this and the relevance it has in this post.

For DoASc and for more advanced builds in UWSC/FoWSc you'd have multiple armor sets on your Sin. You'd have different shields and different weapon sets (ie. zealous spear/furious spear/cruel spear) depending on the job at hand.
There was always debate, blessed vs. piercing for 4lord tanks in gloom, blessed vs. vanguards for pits.
Ultimately I guess if you were a good enough sin you could, as I managed to on odd occasion, 4 lord without LB title, piercing armor or any pcons.

The previous post is kind of attributing GW1 ideals to GW2 which I don't disagree with I just would like to point out that while attributes in GW1 linked to the weapons (ie. having 13 points in strength with an r13 strength shield) meant you got a benefit from these. Not having the attribute for the item they were less effective and sometimes that was a big deal in areas like Balanced DoA and The Deep (particularly on Warriors with the wrong armor/weapons.)

Furthermore having a set of armor specced with full radiant and attunement runes for a mesmer, with +3+1 and +3 meant that you had more attributes and more energy which for the way we did DoASc was perfectly acceptable. You didn't particularly need any health what-so-ever.

Just an example for a Sin as most people in high end PvE had a sin and understood the mechanics of Gw1 armor and build changing:

Armor set 1:

AL70
Blessed +3+1 Shadow Arts +50hp +6 energy

Armor Set 2:

AL70
Vanguards +3+1 Shadow Arts Purity/Restoration/Clarity Runes

Armor set 3:

AL70
Radiant +3+1 Dagger Arts +50hp +3 Critical +Vigor

Armor set 4

AL70
Blessed +3+1 Shadow Arts +3 Deadly +3 Shadow +3 Dagger +3 Critical

All 4 of these armor sets give very different stats however they are all what we attribute to max armor in Gw1. This meant that while we could quite easily respec points into the attributes for different builds it also meant that very cheaply we could wear armor that also suited what job we had to do. For a Veil Jadoth pull swapping to a 55 armor set during the run meant that the EMo didn't drop bonds and the Tank didn't die within 1 second (hi lemon<3, OH also The Game)

As for weapon sets in Guild Wars 1 we had two types of weapons, now while GW2 has "inscriptions" as it were it also has "old school" style items as well.
In effect Guild Wars 2 has an "old school" armor piece with an "inscription slot"

The main problem for old school weapons in GW1 was that it was difficult to find the correct mods and they couldn't be changed. This is every important to note while thinking about GW2.


So what is the point in mentioning this, well firstly look at the specs in GW2.
We have 5 attrbute lines that increase 2 things per attribute.

I will focus on the elementalist as that is the character I mainly play:



Fire Magic:
Power
Condition Duration



Air Magic:
Precision
Critical Damage


Earth Magic:
Toughness
Condition Damage



Water Magic:
Vitality
Healing Power


Arcana:
Boon Duration
Attunement Recharge Rate

So for example a high dps elementalist build could potentially spec 30 into Fire, 30 into Air and 10 into Arcana. This build would put out a very high DPS especially on criticals. This however would be a "glass cannon" (Glass cannon is typically a caster that typically has one of the highest DPS rates with little to no defensive skills or armor)


Armor sets


Runes:

Runes play another big part in the way armor is "specced"

Just taking a few examples:

Rune of the elementalist gives:

+25 power (1)
+17 Condition damage (2)
+50 power (3)
+40 condition damage (4)
+90 power (5)
Burning and frozen last 20% longer. (6)

Whereas Rune of Dwayna gives:

+25 healing (1)
+20% regeneration duration (2)
+50 healing (3)
5% chance to gain regeneration for 10s when hit. (cooldown: 30s) (4)
+90 healing (5)
When you use a heal skill you and all nearby allies gain regeneration for 5 seconds. (cooldown: 10s) (6)

These two runes are totally different and provide very different bonuses. As far as I'm aware there is no such thing as of yet as a perfect salvage kit this means that each time you want to change the runes of the armor that you are wearing in GW2 you have to replace the runes and buy a new set of runes each time you wish to "re-spec". That or of course have a new armor set dedicated to that particular rune set.
Of course that brings me to the other point of the "old school" modded armor. Each armor set is build in such a way to have inherent mods.

These are split into:




These inherent mods mean that while you could potentially "re-spec" armor using different runes there is no way (as far as I know) to change these inherent mods.
This means that ultimately there is cause for multiple armor sets and in direct relation to this, multiple weapon sets (multiple staffs etc) for different build set ups.

Jewellery

Jewellery runs into the same problems that armor runs into. It is crafted with inherent mods but also has an inscription slot as it were. This might allow for "re-speccing" your jewellery from healing into power but it is not a full conversion and this change means a great deal of money just to change an inscription slot that.

Builds being used

Now while the previous post mentioned three types of support, control and dps.
I have to disagree and say there is more types and potentially more than I'm about to mention, this is due to there being so many variations and skills being thrown around with and played.

Support;
Support is, in my opinion, split into two, healing support and boon support.

Healing Support. People have said there is no monk/ dedicated healer and I totally agree. However if you look at the Elementalists water line and the Necromancers Well skills similarly with the Guardians healing line I'd have to disagree. Between them Necros and Eles and Guardians have the ability (with the fully specced armor/weapons/attributes) to pump out almost fully healing AoE spells.

Boon Support. While Elementalists lack the real power to buff the rest of the team, Necromancers and Guardians can keep a team alive in a similar way a Paragon could in Gw1. These boons buff not only defensive powers but offensive too. They can make the damage out put of the entire team increase dramatically for a short time as well as protect the team from the particularly nasty conditions or attacks.

I'd generally feel that a team needs both of these things in an effective team run.

It does not have to be directed onto just one character though, as long as in the team someone has strong AoE heals and someone has strong AoE buffs then that is perfectly adequate.

So what would support classes spec into? Well generally Healing Power, Vitality and Power.

Tanking;
There is, regardless of what people say deffinately a need or want for a tanking class, while there is no direct tanking skills (ie, taunt skills) there are things that professions, particularly Guardians, can do to act as a tank. How would I define a tank? Someone that stopped the DPS/Heal/Support Classes from taking too much damage/any damage.
Tanks can have the ability to pump out damage. So there are really two types of tanks, a healing tank that "specs" into healing and toughness and a DpS tank that specs into DPS and Toughness. However while anyone could spec into these the tank role must realise their main job is to interrupt the foe if it's about to attack a caster class, it should be attacking the foe the most and as far as I've seen the players with the most toughness and hitting the foe the most is the ones that actually get targeted first.

A tank would spec into either Toughness, Healing Power and Power or a variation of the superior stat.


DPS

DPS I guess I can split up even further.

Caster direct damage
Casters that directly damage foes. Not particularly relying on conditional damage. Normal attacks deal large damage as well as skill damage.

Caster AoE/CC
Large Aoe damage with conditions such as freeze and cripple

Caster DoT/Condition
Basically an aoe condition class. Necros are probably the best

Caster DoT/CC
Damage over time and Crowd control, basically a class that stuns, dazes, interrupts while doing damage over time rather than direct damage. Such as when foes attack they take damage (RIP backfire)

These professions will split up stat wise.

Some will want to go down the line of Power, Precision and Critical damage whereas others will want to spec into Condition Power and Vitality.


tl;dr

I guess what I am really pointing out here in a very long winded drawn out kind of way is that ultimately "re-speccing" to a point of efficiency isn't just about shuffling around attribute points unless you have a very generic armor/weapon/accessory set, ie. something that works for most re-specs.
While it might be a good idea to point out or suggest having certain builds these builds actually, similarly to GW1 wont work as well as they should without knowledge of the skills and quite importantly, the correct equipment.

Needless to say, this shouldn't be off putting to people. Re-speccing for a dungeon to compliment your team is always beneficial, however similarly to GW1 these builds will be heavily complimented by the correct equipment.
Going into a dungeon with condition, healing and toughness armor/weapons/accessories then "speccing" into a build that is pure caster dps is going to be much less effective than if you have an equipment set that is specced into Power, Precision and Critical damage.

_________________
and when the evening comes, we'll set the world on fire.


Last edited by Arietta on Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Dar
Jungle Troll
Jungle Troll


Posts : 215
Join date : 2011-09-23
Age : 31

PostSubject: Re: Build Wars!   Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:11 pm

Even tho Rider posted this, we did have a talk between a few of us before it was actually written up.

My take on this was, it can't be like the days of old. We couldn't have teams that where just these 5 people doing these 5 builds and ONLY these builds. This, as you all know, was Guild Wars 1 in any DoA run, Urgoz, Deep, Underworld, and FoW. There was room for variation, but not much, it was always the same team set up or professions doing certain things.

I know most of you remember the YUM forums and when Shiverpeaks Search and Rescue[Lost] were in the YUM ally. While I was in YUM I got to know the leader of Lost after they more or less faded away for the remainder of the game. Blank was the one who came up with those huge build lists for Deep and Urgoz that were 35 different builds. This may have seemed like a lot to some of you all, and very unorganized since we did it a specific way, but it was fun to actually do. as long as you had the same base concept as any Urgoz team (2 melee, 2-3 healers, EoE) you could run any type of caster or melee that you wanted when you did this run. It made it versatile and very nice IMO.

I bring this up because this is how I think it should be here in GW2. We can easily come up with 5+ builds per profession that people can spec to when they are 80. For every profession each weapon does serve a different purpose and its very clearly pointed out as you learn the weapons.

The way I see these builds coming together is that they fall within 7 categories:

  1. ConD DPS - Deals Condition Damage through bleeds, poison, burning, and Confusion.
  2. DD DPS - Deals Direct Damage through weapons, usually high Power, Precision, and Critical Damage.
  3. Movement Control - Controls foes through chill, cripple, immobilize, float, sink, and wards that prevent enemy movement
  4. Damage Control - Reduces incoming damage with blind, chill, weakness, daze, skills that block projectiles.
  5. Boon Support - Provides any number of boons to the team to help heal or increase damage output.
  6. Heal Support - Provides healing to the party through skills that heal players directly or that provide regen.
  7. Hybrids - Any build that does 2 or more of the above types


These are really the 7 categories that every profession can fall into. You could most likely split them up even further like Becca did, but again most of those would just fall into the hybrid list. Every profession can do any of these roles, some much better than others.

If we did start doing this, I would like have a list of builds that span all of these for each profession. I said earlier that this is a game where any profession can do any role, I don't want to force people into running a specific role on that character all the time.

_________________
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Paul
Jungle Troll
Jungle Troll


Posts : 118
Join date : 2010-09-06

PostSubject: Re: Build Wars!   Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:20 pm

This is something I've discussed with evo before as well and as much as we don't feel it's necessary to make specific teams with roles as was said I agree this can be something that is good as well.

However I also have other suggestions which may be a little more restrictive but will help on the aspect of respeccing.

Necessary roles on a per dungeon basis:

The idea of trying to take roles is fine but I also believe there can be more to it then that or the teams can be filled with different aspects other than roles, especially for certain dungeons. As was evidenced in an AC run we had the other day where we had really bad burrow killers we struggled to do some of the parts that could be easy if you instead did have a good burrow killer or 2 like an ele or engi. There are parts to almost every single dungeon that could be tremendously helped by having 1 or 2 roles dedicated to a certain position like "burrow killers" or in other cases like strong AoE damage or shutdown or tanks.

For instance something we've liked to do in CM's butler or asura paths is do some line of sight pulls with AoE to take down the bigger groups of enemies you face further into the dungeon. The only time I've even seen this work was when I was on my necro and I just stacked a bunch of wells, aoe conditions and then sat in plague as they all got cleaned up but the rest of the times it has usually failed and we at least have to do 1 big pull and wipe then do another pull and cleanup what we weren't able to kill, sometimes a 3rd pull even. Cutting those resets down is a reasonable goal in my opinion we aren't exactly trying to speed clear by just trying to fail less it just makes the run smoother. Furthermore there is more that any random build can do with little respeccing required.

Synergizing team oriented builds:

I believe every profession has the ability to support, do AoE damage and even tank if they want to with little to no respeccing required, at most a simple retrait. Simply using a different elite or heal or utility skill could make a build much more healthy for the team overall. Let's look at the options for a few classes:

Rangers usually take troll unguent because it is an extremely strong heal but if you instead took healing spring in most situations you can provide regen and condition removal to your frontline or backline which can be a pretty significant benefit really. On top of that there are the elites like rampage as one which is a really selfish elite to use but instead you could maybe choose to just use nature's renewal or entangle to help with healing/res and AoE snaring and damage.

Thieves usually just have a spec mostly meant for damage but if you switch out one of your utilities for shadow refuge you gain an incredibly strong way to res people since it will stealth anyone you cast it on and heal them even when they are downed. Furthermore there are also other team utilities that might be better to use compared to something like signets which are really selfish ways of boosting your own performance where helping your team may be better.

More over professions like guardians who have a lot of options can tend to be specced for one certain thing over another where a lot of the time we may rely on them to be more of a tank. There are other options outside of that such as a more support build with staff and mace which is built maybe more to heal your team and boost their damage rather then necessarily tank and that type of thing should be considered ahead of time so we don't make the mistake of sending a support guardian as a frontline tank.

~ These are just a few examples I'm not picking anyone out it's just something to consider ~

My solution to this which also goes in line with the idea of specific roles would be to make a build compendium for each profession with options in multiple specs and roles for people to choose from so they can still do what they want to a degree. This was a goal of mine but as you can see with the progress of my consumables thread I don't really spend a lot of time around on the forums writing shit up right now.

I think build threads would have the discussion we need as the dungeons more or less are very straight forward and don't take a lot of major thinking to them, even arah tbh. There are some benefits to be gained from discussing dungeons but there is A LOT more slack to be gained from getting down builds, gear, consumables, etc.

_________________
Gild Worz Lvl 80 Warrior
This Game Is Nerd Lvl 80 Necro
Paulxd Lvl 80 Engineer
Paul Lvl 80 Guardian
Nerdmaster Paul Lvl 3x Ele
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Broken Arietta
 
avatar

Posts : 279
Join date : 2012-06-22
Age : 25
Location : United Kingdom

PostSubject: Re: Build Wars!   Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:55 pm

At the end of the day I'd say an ele should be in every team and that is the end of the matter.

Wink


_________________
and when the evening comes, we'll set the world on fire.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Navis
Jungle Troll
Jungle Troll
avatar

Posts : 221
Join date : 2010-08-27
Location : Paris, France

PostSubject: Re: Build Wars!   Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:47 pm

Paul wrote:
Synergizing team oriented builds:

I believe every profession has the ability to support, do AoE damage and even tank if they want to with little to no respeccing required, at most a simple retrait. Simply using a different elite or heal or utility skill could make a build much more healthy for the team overall. Let's look at the options for a few classes:

Rangers usually take troll unguent because it is an extremely strong heal but if you instead took healing spring in most situations you can provide regen and condition removal to your frontline or backline which can be a pretty significant benefit really. On top of that there are the elites like rampage as one which is a really selfish elite to use but instead you could maybe choose to just use nature's renewal or entangle to help with healing/res and AoE snaring and damage.

Thieves usually just have a spec mostly meant for damage but if you switch out one of your utilities for shadow refuge you gain an incredibly strong way to res people since it will stealth anyone you cast it on and heal them even when they are downed. Furthermore there are also other team utilities that might be better to use compared to something like signets which are really selfish ways of boosting your own performance where helping your team may be better.

More over professions like guardians who have a lot of options can tend to be specced for one certain thing over another where a lot of the time we may rely on them to be more of a tank. There are other options outside of that such as a more support build with staff and mace which is built maybe more to heal your team and boost their damage rather then necessarily tank and that type of thing should be considered ahead of time so we don't make the mistake of sending a support guardian as a frontline tank.

~ These are just a few examples I'm not picking anyone out it's just something to consider ~

So very true. For Warrior you could oppose signets (selfish skills) and shouts/banners (typical support skills).

One other thing to consider is that unlike GW1, you can change your build inside a dungeon: as soon as you are out of combat, skills are changeable.

So dungeon "builds" could also include a detailed walkthrough, with a list of skills (possibly from all professions) to use for specific fights or events. For instance, for the Spider fight in AC, where long poison gets applied often, "Shake it off!" is a priority skills for Warriors. For the Seraph path of CM, "Fear me!" will let you place the barrels to blow up the door very safely...

_________________
Guildwars 2: [W] Navis Swift - [G] Sivan Star - [Me] Navis Ciaran - [En] Sivan Sokka - [El] Sivan Mekhar
Navis.1486 on Yak's Bend


Last edited by Navis on Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Mitch
Admin
avatar

Posts : 728
Join date : 2010-08-09
Age : 40
Location : Indianapolis

PostSubject: Re: Build Wars!   Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:17 pm

Navis wrote:

One other thing to consider is that unlike GW1, you can change your build inside a dungeon: as soon as you are out of combat, skills are changeable.

So dungeon "builds" could also include a detailed walkthrough, with a list of skills (possibly from all professions) to use for specific fights or events. For instance, for the Spider fight in AC, where long poison gets applied often, "Shake it off!" is a priority skills for Warriors. For the Seraph path of CM, Fear me will let you place the barrels to blow up the door very safely...


Its true that non of us have multiple armor sets for each of our chars...or the space to carry them all for that matter.

Let's not forget that you can change all of your weapons while not in combat either...giving you a seriously diverse set of skills.
No you cant change your armor stats or your attributes in the middle of a dungeon but to me its not these stats that make the biggest difference...
It's the appropriate use of skills and overall intelligent playing that will get you and your team through the toughest challenges.

_________________
Back to top Go down
View user profile
eVoVe
Admin
avatar

Posts : 851
Join date : 2010-08-08
Age : 42
Location : Atlanta Georgia

PostSubject: Re: Build Wars!   Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:05 pm

1 "tanky type" + Evo + 3 others = win

_________________
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Frosty
Needs To Get Off The Forum
Needs To Get Off The Forum
avatar

Posts : 1028
Join date : 2011-01-05
Age : 34
Location : St. Louis, MO

PostSubject: Re: Build Wars!   Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:06 am

eVoVe wrote:
1 "tanky type" + Evo + 3 others = win

Read: Evo should level something other than a ranger. <3

_________________

Your friendly Legion Of Doom [LOD] liaison <3
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Broken Arietta
 
avatar

Posts : 279
Join date : 2012-06-22
Age : 25
Location : United Kingdom

PostSubject: Re: Build Wars!   Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:03 am

A tankyish role is basically a heavy armored char.

I guess they should be the one to take the brunt of the damage. They don't have to be specced defensively but I don't see why any Heavy class wouldn't have toughness in their spec.

They either do DPS or protty healy stuff :3

Not that i've played a warrior past level 33. Totally not the point :p

Also saying an ele can do a tanky role.. i lold <3

_________________
and when the evening comes, we'll set the world on fire.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Build Wars!   

Back to top Go down
 
Build Wars!
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Looking for New Star Wars Lego
» Terran Wars
» Hot Toys making Indiana Jones figures, hints at Star Wars as well...
» Build a Bear pans at Williams-Sonoma
» PC build time (its DONE)

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Tears Of The Ascended :: Dungeons-
Jump to: